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(Another anonymous one)

i read a document which arrived in my mailbox in which you comment on
the ability to access finger via telnet.  you said that many telnet
programs for the pc don't support telneting to a port.

i only have one, in addition to the undocumented telnet at the win95 dos
prompt.  it is netscan tools 2.40a from northwest performance software
(kirk v. thomas)  i tried telnet <hostname> 79 with this program and i
got a connect to port 79.  couldn't get any response out of port 79 but
that's just me.

by the way i like this shareware program very much.  it has it all,
finger, traceroute, server lookup, ping, the whole shebang (sp?).  i
forget what i paid for it but it was sort of trivial ($25?).

 (more anonymous)

Here's an update of sorts for you, re W95 (hey, some of us gotta produce
text and spreadsheets too! Not to mention QUAKE!)

You said:

> >You need a telnet program on a computer that runs some sort of Unix. I've
> >tried the telnet program in Windows but it refuses to let me telnet to a
> >specific port. The Compuserve and America Online telnet programs won't
> do it.

While its best to learn the ins and outs of Unix at the least so one can
perpetrate, ahem, use the resources at say, that community library down
the street, one may want to try at home or office too.  If the task of
telnetting to a port is difficult, then sysadmin'g linux will be a task
of biblical proportions. Sooooo...

In win95 you have two options: Get run off of the start menu.  Type
telnet (no need for dir path) and hit enter.  The choose Connect |
Remote System.  Type the domain in the top box (Host Name).  Type the
port in the Port edit box. hit enter, and boogie.  **NOTE** You have to
be a good typist because there is no local echo in this mode; for ports
25 and 79 anyway.  (I defer the question of port 69).

If you want a local echo then set up Hilgraeve's Hyper Terminal
program.  Once you have a VT100 shell connection you can use your local
host's telnet, and have local echo.  (For OS2'ers, you've got Hilgraeve
too.)

For unix meddling, Hilgrave, versus the MS telnet, is my personal fave.

BTW-- I prefer this to be distributed confidentially if at all.  Thanks
for taking my risks, Ms. Meinel.

aloha,
Neurocracy (Sure, finger me and find out who I am, but why ruin the
drama?)

PS: If I have my history right, MS-DOS is a sort of Unix, albeit SCO or
System V's inbred, illegitimate and developmentally malfunctional
relative.

(Moderator's note: Let's end this loooong missive on a happy note. If you
would like to get several high tech humor items emailed to you every week,
you can subscribe to me humor list by emailing with
message "subscribe humor". Following is a sample, sent in by Academy award
winning computer animation researcher and Pixar co-founder Loren Carpenter.
Yes, Mr. Renderman, Juarssic Park and Toy Story animation guru himself!)

X-Loop: cmeinel.com
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 96 11:50 PST
From: loren@pixar.com (Loren Carpenter)
To:
Subject: Don't know if you've seen this..
 

Top Ten Reasons Why the Star Wars Characters Would Kick Butt in the
Star Trek Universe

10) In the Star Wars universe, weapons rarely, if ever, are set on
        "stun".

9)  The Enterprise needs a huge engine room with an anti-matter unit
        and a crew of twenty just to go into warp-- the Millennium Falcon does
        the same thing with R2-D2 and a Wookie.

8)  After resisting the Imperial torture droid and Darth Vader,
        Princess Leia still looked fresh and desirable-- after pithy Cardassian
        starvation torture, Picard looked like hell.

7)  Jabba the Hutt would eat Harry Mudd for trying to cut in on his
        action.

6)  Luke Skywalker is not obsessed with sleeping with every alien he
        encounters.

5)  One word: lightsabers.

4)  The Federation would have to attempt to liberate any ship named
        Slave I.

3)  The Death Star doesn't care if a world is class "M" or not.

2)  Darth Vader could choke the entire Borg empire with one glance.

1)  Picard pilots the Enterprise through an asteroid belt at
        one-quarter impulse power.  Han Solo floors it.
 

      Loren Carpenter     |      Imagination is the true ground of being.
      loren@pixar.com     |
 
 

Wed Dec 04 21:46:09 1996
From: "T.Q.D.B." <tqdb@feist.com>
Subject: Re: GTMHH's worth

On Wed, 4 Dec 1996 jericho@dimensional.com wrote:

> Imagine yourself trying to teach all of your superiors about
> unconventional warfare. That is exatly what is going on here. :)

    I don't think that Carolyn is so self-absorbed as to believe that she
can teach knowledgable hackers very much.  As far as I've seen, she
pretty much claims to target the 'newbies' or curious non-hackers.  Of
course, from some of the discussions that have ensued due to inaccurate
explanations in the GTMHH she has come off sounding a little cocky.  In
that aspect she DOES closely characterize most of us hackers, and I can't
really fault her.  We could all probably take lessons in putting apologies
for mistakes before our pride.

    Anyway, being an involved party I should probably explain my position
for all to read.  As I state on my web page where I archive back copies
of the GTMHH, I "support her efforts to promote the basic elements of a
technical education that hacking requires."  While a lot of the
information she offers does exist somewhere else it often can be hard to
find for the unskilled or H/P uninitiated.  The underground community has
long needed more guides to help the beginning hacker learn more technical
aspects of computers and networking.

    There is, of course, a question as to whether she is giving people
too much information about how to hack without first building up their
background in actually understanding the technology.  In some cases I
think she does, yet in others I feel she's appropriately vague.  The line
between acceptable and unacceptable disclosures is really one that we
each define personally which makes it hard to agree upon.  In a sense, I
think that Carolyn is still defining hers based off the reactions of
established hackers and her peers reading the Guide.

    I hope that she continues to provide raw, and sometimes rare,
information on the innerworking of OSes rather than focus purely on the
hacking aspects of them.  I feel that hacking needs to develop from the
desire to find out for yourself just how far you can explore a particular
program or OS function.

    Personally, I believe that my days of hacking started around the time
that I started trying to program viruses on an Apple IIe.  I wanted to push
the computer past the point of what most people considered acceptable and
that really excited me.  Carolyn seems to be in such a point of her life
right now.  She's seen the power and exhilliration that lies within
hacking and her way of increasing those effects is to share with others.
Is she qualified to do so?  At this point, not to the extent that she
tries to be.  Should experienced people help her out (and receive credit
where credit is due)?  They should if they want to see this project to
succeed.

    Whether this particular projects succeeds or fails depends on
the participation of knowledgeable people.  As Maelstrom (I believe)
said, a lot of good information comes out of responses to published
GTMHHs.  It would be better to have that feedback _before_ they are
distributed to the hundred or so recipients.

    To be honest, I don't care too much if the GTMHH project does fail as
long as something else can take its place.  I recall what it was like
trying to find accurate H/P material as a "newbie" and because of that I
would like to try and change that aspect of the underground scene.  Call it
wishful thinking if you will.
 
> We are glad you know.. but we also know there are others out there that
> might just take her word to be the final word.

    If everyone would take ALL their sources of "facts" with a grain of
doubt the world would be filled with a lot less misinformation..
.TQDB

  -=| T.Q.D.B. - tqdb@wichita.fn.net - http://www.feist.com/~tqdb |=-
 
           "The term 'hacker' is not necessarily derogatory.
          A small percentage of them give the rest a bad name."
       --Special Agent Andrew Black, FBI SF Computer Crime Squad
 

Thu Dec 05 07:36:09 1996
From: jericho@dimensional.com
Subject: 1.2.rep.hi

[Second in a series of replies to the Happy Hackers files. Input was taken
 from a handful of people and organized by Disorder and se7en. All replies
 should be directed to either dc-stuff@dis.org or hh@cibola.net]

>GUIDE TO (mostly) HARMLESS HACKING
>
>Vol. 1 Number 2

>Heroic Hacking in Half an Hour

Forging email is heroic? Some of us tend to believe that you being able
to log in and finding out you have been hacked (again) is a heroic feat in
itself. One aspect of learning to hack is learning system security,
from both sides.

>So how would you like to be able to gain access and run a program on the
>almost any of the millions of computers hooked up to the Internet? How would
>you like to access these Internet computers in the same way as the most
>notorious hacker in history: Robert Morris!

Forging email and writing a sophisticated 'worm' are quite different.

Typing command line entries into Port 25 is not running a program. From
what I know about Robert, he has better things to do than forge email.
And, as stated, his worm was much more sophisticated, and not relevent to
your discussion. Robert also got into serious trouble for his activities.
I see the name dropping as an attempt to delude newbies into thinking
they will become one of the greats by listening to you, so that people
will listen.

>But Compuserve, America Online and many other Internet Service Providers
>(ISPs) are such good nannies that they will shelter you from this temptation.

There is a difference between 'Online Service' and 'Internet Service Provider'
you know.

You watch too much "Mike and Maddy." BIG difference, but maybe not to
you, as your multiple personalities share an email account over on
Compuserve. (Carolyn Meinel/Eve Serene)

>Newbie note #1; A shell account is an Internet account that lets you give
>Unix commands. Unix is a lot like DOS. You get a prompt on your screen and
>type out commands. Unix is the language of the Internet. If you want to be
>a serious hacker, you have to learn Unix.

This may be simple semantics over words, but I think this needs to be
pointed out. The only thing that DOS and Unix have in common is they
both have command line environments.

Unix is not the language of the Internet. TCP/IP would be a lot better
analogy as the language of the net as TCP/IP is what is somehwat unique to
Internet-connected systems, whereas the OS can be one of many things.

>But at least today Netcom will let me do this command. And just about any
>cheap "shell account" offered by a fly-by-night Internet service provider
>will let you do this. Many college accounts will let you get away with this,
>too.

Get away with? You make it sound like they aren't supposed to let you.
That is one of the purposes of a shell account.

>They'll usually say, "Sure, can do." But lots of times they are lying. They
>think you are too dumb to know what a real shell account is. Or the
>underpaid person you talk with doesn't have a clue..

This is a really shallow statement and you are stereotyping entirely too
much. Most ISPs will flat out tell you "sure" (and mean it) or
"we don't offer shell access". One of the local ISPs to me pays their
tech support between 29k - 32k a year. Is that underpaid?

This is yet another example of generalization that has caused enough
problems to the hacking culture over the years. Once again, generalizations
do nothing in learning how to successfully hack.

>But there is phun in that port 25. Incredible phun. You see, whenever you
>telnet to a computer's port 25, you will get one of two results: once in
>awhile, a message saying "access denied" as you hit a firewall. But, more

Lets be technically accurate here. First off, it doesn't say "access
denied". Second, if you get a message that implies you are not able
to access that service, it could be that machine does not have the
service enabled. There is no rule that states a machine HAS to run a
mailer daemon of some sort.

Besides, sending mail as "santa" is not exactly what I would call
incredible fun.

>Getting this list of commands is pretty nifty. It makes you look really kewl
>because you know how to get the computer to tell you how to hack it. And it

It makes you look trivial. That's what 'man' pages were created for - to
give you a list of commands and how to use them effectively. Getting a
list of them is in no way special by any stretch of the imagination. Except
your imagination.

>Evil Genius Tip: incoming email is handled by port 110. Try telnetting there
>someday. But usually POP, the program running on 110, won't give you help
>with its commands and boots you off the minute you make a misstep.

Incoming email is handled by port 25. Port 110 is for your POP client
to come in and GET the mail. ie: port 110 is outgoing so to speak.

>        Received: from merde.dis.org by remarque.berkeley.edu   (8.7.3/1.31)
>        id MAA23472; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 12:49:56  0700 (PDT)

>Look at the three "received" messages.. My ISP's computer received this email
>not directly from Remarque.berkeley.edu. but from merde.dis.com, which in
>turn got the email from Remarque.

Received: from merde.dis.org

People who don't correctly read the headers are your best friends when
trying to send fake mail.

<LOL> This is why you fail in teaching others this kind of stuff. As
I said, you need to know what the hell you are talking about before
trying to teach others something.
 

(This mail copyright 1996 Damien Sorder - All rights reserved. You may
 respond to this mail and quote relevant parts. You may not publish
 any part of this in print without prior written consent.)
 

Thu Dec 05 18:51:03 1996
From: "Carolyn P. Meinel" <>
Subject: Happy Hacker Digest
Happy Hacker Digest Dec. 5, 1996

From: "Alan D M" <alandm@hotstar.net>
To: <owner-hh@cibola.net>
Subject: Newbies and the Gleaming Elite
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 22:55:44 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal

Hi Caroline!
Thanks for the Post Of The Day tribute. (I'd like to thank all the little
people, etc etc etc.) But seriously: Can I make a couple of points
following this prior exchange?

> As to Jericho's comment:
> >I know you can get some of these utils for DOS, but even then.. it just
> >isn't the same. This is the second time I have seen you try to justify
> >keeping Windows95 if you want to become a "hacker". That is just wrong.
>
> Carolyn has never said Win95 and the available apps for it are an
> acceptable substitute for a shell account or running a PPP connection
> through Linux, but not everyone is as elite as you Jericho.  She has
> merely given solutions for those not able to or not ready to move up to
> those levels.
>
> Why does it have to be an either-or proposition?  Win95 and Linux can
> co-exist peacefully on the same hard drive. ...
 

1. You come in for some unwarranted attacks for suggesting newbies like
myself could run Windows and Linux. I'm the one waiting for Santa to
deliver his Linux. Seasoned, elite hackers seem to think this is amateur
hour. That gets up my nose.
Caroline, less than a year ago I would have had trouble plugging a computer
in. It was a major achievement for me to use the right mouse button.
Customizing the taskbar was occasion to write a snail mail letter to my son
at Edinburgh university. The point is I've been learning at my own pace and
while I'm still obviously the object of scorn for people who insist on
using Ph where f would do, I'm making progress. I'm trying to learn C. I'm
reading books on Unix (which is like trying to learn ancient Greek by
reading books in Latin.)
In the past 11 months I've come a long way, mostly through coming to terms
with my own limitations and trying to expand them. Dare I say I, in my own
way, have made greater strides than someone who calls him or herself
Phreakin' 3l33t Hacksaws Deemon Def Con Arteestes? Hmmm?
2. If the avowed intent of all hackers is the spread and sharing of
knowledge, how come those with most of it sneer so much at those trying to
learn? Hmmm?
3. If it wasn't for Windows, I wouldn't have gotten this far.
4. If it wasn't for you, I wouldn't have gotten that little bit further.
I leave it up to you to use my name or not.

 alandm@hotstar.net

P.S. The secret of life used to be 42. With tax, I believe it is now
47.875.
Alan

(Anonymous post)

42 is the ANSWER, But what was the question to the meaning of life, the universe, and everything? Deep Thought still working on it in your back room?  :^)

Bdog

P.S. The digest form seems to work much better.

At 03:34 PM 12/4/96 -0700, you wrote:
>>On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, **** wrote:
>>>
>>> Ms.  Meinel, PLEASE POST ANONYMOUSLY, if you decide to post.  Thanks.
>>>
>>> I often get the message from netscape that a site isn't secure and the
>>> contents of my form may be seen during transit, or whatever.  My question
>>> is:
>>> how do we do that?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>You can't really do anything but refuse the insecure transaction. The Web
>>owner should install better software.
>>
>>
>No no no, What I meant was, how would I get to see someone else's form as
>they are sending it?
>
>
Moderator’s note: The answer is you use a "sniffer," a program that lurks on a computer used to transport Internet traffic, and sorts through it looking for items of interest. These programs can also see anything you do when you telnet or send email, unless your telnet session or email is securely encrypted. There are lots of sniffer programs publicly available. But since, IMHO they have no good purpose, I won’t  hunt any down for this list. OK, OK, I will grant that under extraordinary circumstances, a law enforcement agency armed with a search warrant may have good reason to run a sniffer program.

From: jericho@dimensional.com
Received: from nova.dimensional.com (jericho@nova.dimensional.com [208.206.176.11]) by blackhole.dimensional.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA26589; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 15:49:06 -0700 (MST)
Posted-Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 15:49:06 -0700 (MST)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 15:49:04 -0700 (MST)
Reply-To: jericho@dimensional.com
To: hh@cibola.net
Subject: Re: HH: Help for people without a shell account
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19961204204140.091fc9dc@pop.erols.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.961204154612.11028A-100000@nova.dimensional.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
 

This was sent privately, so I stripped the poster's name and replied for
all to see.
=-=

> what about running eggdrop bots and having people log onto your system and
> stuff?

Using eggdrop bots as a backdoor?

If would be quite easy to program any irc bot or script to install some
pretty basic backdoors allowing a hacker to gain access to your account.
That is one reason it is recommended that people not irc as 'root' (the
"superuser" of the system).

Or were you talking about something else?

(Moderator’s note: a member of this list is working on a long piece on Internet Relay Chat (IRC). So soon you should get the entire story. Basically, IRC is much beloved of hackers because they love to chat in near-real-time over the Internet. But IRC poses lots of problems to Internet Service Providers. The above post gives one example out of many of why IRC can be a problem.)

Please post anonymously.

How do I find out the name of a user by their name?  I know a person
who's last name is Lowry, and who logs in at cc.usu.edu.  Short of
fingering for days waiting until she logs in, is there any way I can find
out what her login is?  BTW, our VMS system uses an arcane naming system
for students: SL and then three random digits or letters.

(Moderator’s note: I don’t have an answer for this one. Anyone else?)

Another anonymous post:

Howdy

I'm here asking a two questions which i hope i can get an answer to...

First off,  how can i put a subject into the fake mail.....
Up till now i've been going through callisto.unm.edu port 25, but i noticed
it doesn't except the subject....also i'd like to be able to enter a name
as to who it is from......

(Moderator’s reply: Here’s how I put all sorts of headers, including a subject, into fake mail. Note you can use just about any Internet host. Please don’t wear out poor Callisto!

->telnet slug 25
Trying 198.59.115.24 ...
Connected to slug.swcp.com.
Escape character is '^]'.
220-slug.swcp.com Sendmail 8.6.9/8.6.9 ready at Thu, 5 Dec 1996 18:25:41 -0700
220 ESMTP spoken here
helo
250 slug.swcp.com Hello llama.swcp.com [198.59.115.19], pleased to meet you
mail from: cmeinel@north.pole.org
250 cmeinel@north.pole.org... Sender ok
rcpt to:
250 ... Recipient ok
data
354 Enter mail, end with "." on a line by itself
subject: Here is how to fake mail a subject header
Received: 12345678qwertyui and a bunch of bs
I figured it out!
.
250 SAA02616 Message accepted for delivery

Now we look at this email in Pine without full headers:

Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 18:26:58 -0700
From: cmeinel@north.pole.org
Subject: Here is how to fake mail a subject header

I figured it out!

So we got the header in. Next we turn on full headers to see if my little bit of phun also made it into the header:

Received: from brute.hway.net (brute.hway.net [207.158.192.66]) by
kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA09414 for <cmeinel@swcp.com>;
Thu, 5 Dec 1996 18:28:19 -0700
From: cmeinel@north.pole.org
Received: by brute.hway.net (950413.SGI.8.6.12/951211.SGI)
        for cmeinel@swcp.com id UAA13542; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 20:28:18 -0500
Received: from slug.swcp.com by brute.hway.net via ESMTP
(950413.SGI.8.6.12/951211.SGI)
        for <> id UAA13525; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 20:28:15
-0500
Received: from (llama.swcp.com [198.59.115.19]) by
slug.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA02616 for ;
Thu, 5 Dec 1996 18:26:58 -0700
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 18:26:58 -0700
X-Loop: cmeinel.com
Message-Id: <199612060126.SAA02616@slug.swcp.com>
subject: Here is how to fake mail a subject header
Received: 12345678qwertyui and a bunch of bs
Apparently-To: <script language="JavaScript"><!-- var name = "cmeinel"; var domain = "cmeinel.com"; document.write('<a href=\"mailto:' + name + '@' + domain + '\">'); document.write(name + '@' + domain + '</a>'); // --></script>

See how that funny “Received: 12345678qwertyui and a bunch of bs” got into the header?)
 

2nd)  my server allows me to have 1 meg page space and i was near over that
until i switched address's...how would i get into the files to check the
space and possibly...umm...change it...

Thanks

anon

Moderator’s note: log on in the root account and you can do anything you want. There’s a zillion ways to possibly do this, one or two of which might work in your case. But it would be illegal. Depending on where you live, it may even be a felony.

If you want to learn those zillion ways to get that magic “#” prompt on your screen, check out the Bugtraq archives at http://www.geek-girl.com/bugtraq/. But I promise you it’s going to be a lot of work.  And please stay out of trouble.

Moderator’s note: here’s another anonymous post. Guess lots of people don’t want to deal with getting flamed by the 31337 d00dz on this list. Hey, I can’t blame you. But if you have a thick skin, believe me, some of the private email this list incites is pretty entertaining. Put your email address on your posts and join the fun!

I happened to receive a chance message today from a friend responding to
another friend who advised that complete anonymity could be achieved
simply by Telnet'ing to port 25 of Microsoft.com and writing the email.
I did send them enough of a warning, and told them how to do some
checking around by emailing themselves a test message in order to look
at the routing headers. I hope they decide to listen. They don't have a
clue to my interest in hacking....well, up until now. But, I know of
their vices as well.

Also, I notice that a lot of the home computer advice is for
DOS/Windows. I have to use them at work sometimes, but I have Macs at
home.  My boss won't let me bring the orphaned Indigo home. The Mac
version of NCSA Telnet 2.5 works fine for pinging, fingering, and
opening a port. Thought I would pass that along. Telnet 2.5 is freeware
and is very simple to run. I may try to connect via SoftWindows doing
the Win 3.11 emulation. If it works, then I'll have to pay attention to
the Terminal comments on here.

From: "T.Q.D.B." <tqdb@feist.com>
X-Sender: tqdb@wichita.fn.net
To: dc-stuff@dis.org, hh@cibola.net
Subject: Re: GTMHH's worth
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.95.961204132346.7089G-100000@nova.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.961204201719.11659B-100000@wichita.fn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Wed, 4 Dec 1996 jericho@dimensional.com wrote:

> Imagine yourself trying to teach all of your superiors about
> unconventional warfare. That is exatly what is going on here. :)

    I don't think that Carolyn is so self-absorbed as to believe that she
can teach knowledgeable hackers very much.  As far as I've seen, she
pretty much claims to target the 'newbies' or curious non-hackers.  Of
course, from some of the discussions that have ensued due to inaccurate
explanations in the GTMHH she has come off sounding a little cocky.  In
that aspect she DOES closely characterize most of us hackers, and I can't
really fault her.  We could all probably take lessons in putting apologies
for mistakes before our pride.

    Anyway, being an involved party I should probably explain my position
for all to read.  As I state on my web page where I archive back copies
of the GTMHH, I "support her efforts to promote the basic elements of a
technical education that hacking requires."  While a lot of the
information she offers does exist somewhere else it often can be hard to
find for the unskilled or H/P uninitiated.  The underground community has
long needed more guides to help the beginning hacker learn more technical
aspects of computers and networking.

    There is, of course, a question as to whether she is giving people
too much information about how to hack without first building up their
background in actually understanding the technology.  In some cases I
think she does, yet in others I feel she's appropriately vague.  The line
between acceptable and unacceptable disclosures is really one that we
each define personally which makes it hard to agree upon.  In a sense, I
think that Carolyn is still defining hers based off the reactions of
established hackers and her peers reading the Guide.

    I hope that she continues to provide raw, and sometimes rare,
information on the inner working of OSes rather than focus purely on the
hacking aspects of them.  I feel that hacking needs to develop from the
desire to find out for yourself just how far you can explore a particular
program or OS function.

    Personally, I believe that my days of hacking started around the time
that I started trying to program viruses on an Apple IIe.  I wanted to push
the computer past the point of what most people considered acceptable and
that really excited me.  Carolyn seems to be in such a point of her life
right now.  She's seen the power and exhilaration that lies within
hacking and her way of increasing those effects is to share with others.
Is she qualified to do so?  At this point, not to the extent that she
tries to be.  Should experienced people help her out (and receive credit
where credit is due)?  They should if they want to see this project to
succeed.

    Whether this particular projects succeeds or fails depends on
the participation of knowledgeable people.  As Maelstrom (I believe)
said, a lot of good information comes out of responses to published
GTMHHs.  It would be better to have that feedback _before_ they are
distributed to the hundred or so recipients.

    To be honest, I don't care too much if the GTMHH project does fail as
long as something else can take its place.  I recall what it was like
trying to find accurate H/P material as a "newbie" and because of that I
would like to try and change that aspect of the underground scene.  Call it
wishful thinking if you will.
 
> We are glad you know.. but we also know there are others out there that
> might just take her word to be the final word.

    If everyone would take ALL their sources of "facts" with a grain of
doubt the world would be filled with a lot less misinformation..
.TQDB

  -=| T.Q.D.B. - tqdb@wichita.fn.net - http://www.feist.com/~tqdb |=-
 
           "The term 'hacker' is not necessarily derogatory.
          A small percentage of them give the rest a bad name."
       --Special Agent Andrew Black, FBI SF Computer Crime Squad

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